Comments on: A coming convergence in the energy sector? http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/03/03/a-coming-convergence-in-the-energy-sector/ Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:28:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Scatter http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/03/03/a-coming-convergence-in-the-energy-sector/comment-page-1/#comment-9800 Scatter Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:16:23 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2177#comment-9800 The thing that puzzled me about the bloom launch was that heat didn't appear to figure in the equation (at least the equation that they communicated) at all. Not even to generate cooling for the servers it was feeding electricity to. Did they ever confirm that the heat would be utilised? It's quite frankly a pointless waste of energy if it's not. The thing that puzzled me about the bloom launch was that heat didn’t appear to figure in the equation (at least the equation that they communicated) at all. Not even to generate cooling for the servers it was feeding electricity to. Did they ever confirm that the heat would be utilised? It’s quite frankly a pointless waste of energy if it’s not.

]]> By: OVIDIU http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/03/03/a-coming-convergence-in-the-energy-sector/comment-page-1/#comment-9724 OVIDIU Fri, 05 Mar 2010 21:29:24 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2177#comment-9724 Both, Tyler and Ivan are right. For every engineer out there the Bloom Energy box is old news. At best is a good marketing stunt in order to push their fuel cell technology into mainstream, "off the shelves' kinda approach. Which is not a bad thing after all. Most likely is going to be a flop. I don't believe the subdivision approach will fly for any North American city. It's about people mentality associated with costs. Will see. Both, Tyler and Ivan are right. For every engineer out there the Bloom Energy box is old news. At best is a good marketing stunt in order to push their fuel cell technology into mainstream, “off the shelves’ kinda approach. Which is not a bad thing after all. Most likely is going to be a flop. I don’t believe the subdivision approach will fly for any North American city. It’s about people mentality associated with costs. Will see.

]]> By: Ivan http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/03/03/a-coming-convergence-in-the-energy-sector/comment-page-1/#comment-9719 Ivan Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:31:53 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2177#comment-9719 I agree that fuel cells are the future in North America. With the shale revolution, natural gas will be cheap and very very plentiful going forward. The issue with fuel cells just comes down to cost curve, reliability and a decent operating model. Hurdles: Cost Curve: The cost to get fuel cells down to the $1500-$2000/kw range (which is still a premium to the build out of a baseload coal plant) one company would have to pump out 100,000 kw worth of units first. Won't get there without govt help. Reliability: Degradation of fuel cell efficiency is about 2% a year... not fantastic right now. Also, SOFC planar cells (as opposed to tubular) have issues with cracking after surprisingly few cycles. Tubular SOFC holds better promise in this regards. Operating model: There are huge logistical hurdles with this thing, you basically have to swap the fuel stack out after 5 years or so. Lots of maintenance. In terms of the Bloom hydrogen thing, the hydrogen output of the unit is very low... I ran some quick back of the envelope stuff and it would basically get your hydrogen car about 5 miles based off a nights production (if that)? Very inefficient right now, so you are right to discount this. Anyways, Bloom gets all the hype, but companies like Acumentrics, CFCL, Ceres etc... are fairly advanced as well. I agree that fuel cells are the future in North America. With the shale revolution, natural gas will be cheap and very very plentiful going forward. The issue with fuel cells just comes down to cost curve, reliability and a decent operating model.

Hurdles:

Cost Curve: The cost to get fuel cells down to the $1500-$2000/kw range (which is still a premium to the build out of a baseload coal plant) one company would have to pump out 100,000 kw worth of units first. Won’t get there without govt help.

Reliability: Degradation of fuel cell efficiency is about 2% a year… not fantastic right now. Also, SOFC planar cells (as opposed to tubular) have issues with cracking after surprisingly few cycles. Tubular SOFC holds better promise in this regards.

Operating model: There are huge logistical hurdles with this thing, you basically have to swap the fuel stack out after 5 years or so. Lots of maintenance.

In terms of the Bloom hydrogen thing, the hydrogen output of the unit is very low… I ran some quick back of the envelope stuff and it would basically get your hydrogen car about 5 miles based off a nights production (if that)? Very inefficient right now, so you are right to discount this.

Anyways, Bloom gets all the hype, but companies like Acumentrics, CFCL, Ceres etc… are fairly advanced as well.

]]> By: Andrew Bogart http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/03/03/a-coming-convergence-in-the-energy-sector/comment-page-1/#comment-9701 Andrew Bogart Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:27:47 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2177#comment-9701 Wow, that's really something. They key factor to small-scale generation has been efficiency and emissions for a long time. If this thing can generate electricity from natural gas just as, or more, efficiently as a large-scale plant could, then a lot of problems could be solved by implementing local generation facilities. Not to mention that this would be one of the first steps into the hydrogen economy. Wow, that’s really something. They key factor to small-scale generation has been efficiency and emissions for a long time. If this thing can generate electricity from natural gas just as, or more, efficiently as a large-scale plant could, then a lot of problems could be solved by implementing local generation facilities. Not to mention that this would be one of the first steps into the hydrogen economy.

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