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	<title>Comments on: Samsung deal: Criticism justified, but missing the bigger picture</title>
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	<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/</link>
	<description>Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market</description>
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		<title>By: EL</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9261</link>
		<dc:creator>EL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9261</guid>
		<description>The above comparison is obviously flawed.  The Samsung deal includes costs for renewable power generation (at 2,500 MW) but also building four new manufacturing plants (these are part of the total costs of the deal).  The question, what portion of the $7 billion is being allocated to renewable power generation.  Currently, the average cost for wind generation is around $1-2 million per MW of nameplate capacity, solar can be around $4 million/MW.  The AECL deal was reported at $10 million/MW ($26 billion for two 1,200 MW Candu Reactors).  These numbers are hard to reconcile because nuclear reactors rarely get delivered on budget (or run at full capacity), and nameplate capacity on wind is not the same as usable power (this varies by siting, conditions, etc.).  But at least we&#039;re comparing apples to apples with the above comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The above comparison is obviously flawed.  The Samsung deal includes costs for renewable power generation (at 2,500 MW) but also building four new manufacturing plants (these are part of the total costs of the deal).  The question, what portion of the $7 billion is being allocated to renewable power generation.  Currently, the average cost for wind generation is around $1-2 million per MW of nameplate capacity, solar can be around $4 million/MW.  The AECL deal was reported at $10 million/MW ($26 billion for two 1,200 MW Candu Reactors).  These numbers are hard to reconcile because nuclear reactors rarely get delivered on budget (or run at full capacity), and nameplate capacity on wind is not the same as usable power (this varies by siting, conditions, etc.).  But at least we&#8217;re comparing apples to apples with the above comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: Len Gould</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9257</link>
		<dc:creator>Len Gould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9257</guid>
		<description>I think there&#039;s clearly errors in the above comparisons of the Samsung deals and AECL reactors.  Tyler claims that the Samsung power would be paid in uniform amounts over the comparison period.  ?? Last I heard, the costs of PV power are ENTIRELY up-front capital, wind very similar, both more than nuclear which has a relatively high fuel and operating labour input cost included in the $23 billion.  

Don&#039;t get me wrong, I like wind and solar and think the Samsung deal is alright mainly because it requires lots of good manufacturing locally, but an AECL deal would do at least as well in maintaining the local economy on a per-kwh-delivered basis over 60 years, and for a LOT less money per-kwh-delivered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s clearly errors in the above comparisons of the Samsung deals and AECL reactors.  Tyler claims that the Samsung power would be paid in uniform amounts over the comparison period.  ?? Last I heard, the costs of PV power are ENTIRELY up-front capital, wind very similar, both more than nuclear which has a relatively high fuel and operating labour input cost included in the $23 billion.  </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I like wind and solar and think the Samsung deal is alright mainly because it requires lots of good manufacturing locally, but an AECL deal would do at least as well in maintaining the local economy on a per-kwh-delivered basis over 60 years, and for a LOT less money per-kwh-delivered.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9241</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9241</guid>
		<description>Alright I see what you&#039;re saying. Thanks for that. 
I don&#039;t know? I&#039;m still not behind this deal. 
I don&#039;t like how foreign investors were pushed to the front of the line over Ontario companies and I just watched Minister Duguid on Focus Ontario, and when he was pressed about the increase in tax payers bills and that Smitherman&#039;s promised 1% increase would more than likely be much larger over the next couple years, he looked very uncomfortable and dodged the questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alright I see what you&#8217;re saying. Thanks for that.<br />
I don&#8217;t know? I&#8217;m still not behind this deal.<br />
I don&#8217;t like how foreign investors were pushed to the front of the line over Ontario companies and I just watched Minister Duguid on Focus Ontario, and when he was pressed about the increase in tax payers bills and that Smitherman&#8217;s promised 1% increase would more than likely be much larger over the next couple years, he looked very uncomfortable and dodged the questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9240</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9240</guid>
		<description>Not a correct comparison.

$23 billion for the nukes would be the all-in cost of building the thing and operating it, and much of it would be an upfront cost before the thing starts generating power. The Samsung power is sold as generated over 20 years, so the province pays the feed-in-tariff plus 4 per cent incentive for every kilowatt-hour of wind and solar generated, and only when it is generated. The only correct comparison is price per kilowatt-hour, and since we don&#039;t know what that would be for nuclear we can&#039;t compare, but some studies suggest it&#039;s as high as 15 cents -- more than the wind portion of what Samsung would be paid (i.e. representing 80 per cent of Samsung&#039;s build).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a correct comparison.</p>
<p>$23 billion for the nukes would be the all-in cost of building the thing and operating it, and much of it would be an upfront cost before the thing starts generating power. The Samsung power is sold as generated over 20 years, so the province pays the feed-in-tariff plus 4 per cent incentive for every kilowatt-hour of wind and solar generated, and only when it is generated. The only correct comparison is price per kilowatt-hour, and since we don&#8217;t know what that would be for nuclear we can&#8217;t compare, but some studies suggest it&#8217;s as high as 15 cents &#8212; more than the wind portion of what Samsung would be paid (i.e. representing 80 per cent of Samsung&#8217;s build).</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9239</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9239</guid>
		<description>Found &lt;a&gt;this blog post&lt;/a&gt; that had an interesting stat on it. The math seems sound, if anyone can refute the claim please show me where it&#039;s wrong:

&quot;Ontario planned a $23 billion deal for new Canadian made reactors to be built for about 2,500MW worth of reliable base-load power for 60 years (life span of reactors). This current deal is $7 billion for 2,500Mw of stochastic power for 20 years.

Nuclear deal=$153,333 per MW-year
Samsung wind/solar deal=$1,400,000 per MW year.

This new deal is almost 9 times as expensive as the planned nuclear plant that was canceled because it was ‘too expensive’.

Anyways just found that very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Found <a>this blog post</a> that had an interesting stat on it. The math seems sound, if anyone can refute the claim please show me where it&#8217;s wrong:</p>
<p>&#8220;Ontario planned a $23 billion deal for new Canadian made reactors to be built for about 2,500MW worth of reliable base-load power for 60 years (life span of reactors). This current deal is $7 billion for 2,500Mw of stochastic power for 20 years.</p>
<p>Nuclear deal=$153,333 per MW-year<br />
Samsung wind/solar deal=$1,400,000 per MW year.</p>
<p>This new deal is almost 9 times as expensive as the planned nuclear plant that was canceled because it was ‘too expensive’.</p>
<p>Anyways just found that very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9224</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 01:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9224</guid>
		<description>This is utterly disgraceful. This is a clear example of corporate colonialism impinging itself onto our government. What has happened throughout modern history is the privatization of a country&#039;s resources, which in many cases leads to a lack of monetary funds to then purchase these resources, and of course, desolate poverty. I&#039;m not saying that this is the fate of Canada, but what is Democracy when we have no say in these issues? Democracy should be the election of ideas for the betterment of society, not of people who are more concerned with profit. Politics has become so outdated with the needs of mankind today as well as our technological and scientific knowledge. If anyone isn&#039;t familiar with one of the proposed solutions to many of our societal problems, then here is a link for The Venus Project:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
and also The Zeitgeist Movement (activist arm)
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is utterly disgraceful. This is a clear example of corporate colonialism impinging itself onto our government. What has happened throughout modern history is the privatization of a country&#8217;s resources, which in many cases leads to a lack of monetary funds to then purchase these resources, and of course, desolate poverty. I&#8217;m not saying that this is the fate of Canada, but what is Democracy when we have no say in these issues? Democracy should be the election of ideas for the betterment of society, not of people who are more concerned with profit. Politics has become so outdated with the needs of mankind today as well as our technological and scientific knowledge. If anyone isn&#8217;t familiar with one of the proposed solutions to many of our societal problems, then here is a link for The Venus Project:<br />
<a href="http://www.thevenusproject.com/" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.thevenusproject.com');" rel="nofollow">http://www.thevenusproject.com/</a><br />
and also The Zeitgeist Movement (activist arm)<br />
<a href="http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/thezeitgeistmovement.com');" rel="nofollow">http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brad Casemore</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9196</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Casemore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9196</guid>
		<description>Tyler, 

On the whole, I agree with your assessment. With this deal, I see the glass more full than empty. The province needs to develop a new, job-spinning manufacturing base, and cleantech is the best option of the available candidates. What&#039;s more, Samsung clearly has major-league aspirations, and it now has the incentive to commit to the province for a large measure of its future success. 

Where I would quibble with you is in your criticism of the government for not having confidence in the local cleantech vendor community. While the government could do more nurturing of local players, we also should consider that our investment community has let us down, demonstrating -- yet again -- its own lack of confidence and vision. That&#039;s one of the reasons we never developed a thriving IT sector, notwithstanding RIM and a few other successes. 

Rather than letting history repeat itself in a different sector, the provincial government sought a major international player that was committed to make things happen. I can&#039;t fault it for cutting the deal with Samsung.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler, </p>
<p>On the whole, I agree with your assessment. With this deal, I see the glass more full than empty. The province needs to develop a new, job-spinning manufacturing base, and cleantech is the best option of the available candidates. What&#8217;s more, Samsung clearly has major-league aspirations, and it now has the incentive to commit to the province for a large measure of its future success. </p>
<p>Where I would quibble with you is in your criticism of the government for not having confidence in the local cleantech vendor community. While the government could do more nurturing of local players, we also should consider that our investment community has let us down, demonstrating &#8212; yet again &#8212; its own lack of confidence and vision. That&#8217;s one of the reasons we never developed a thriving IT sector, notwithstanding RIM and a few other successes. </p>
<p>Rather than letting history repeat itself in a different sector, the provincial government sought a major international player that was committed to make things happen. I can&#8217;t fault it for cutting the deal with Samsung.</p>
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		<title>By: Jp Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9193</link>
		<dc:creator>Jp Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9193</guid>
		<description>Glad to see this government investment. $400 M was just one payment of the many Ontario has given the auto sector in recent years. Its a change toward what I want the province doing with my tax dollar investments, and I&#039;m certain Ontario&#039;s green majority feels the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to see this government investment. $400 M was just one payment of the many Ontario has given the auto sector in recent years. Its a change toward what I want the province doing with my tax dollar investments, and I&#8217;m certain Ontario&#8217;s green majority feels the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Prall</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9159</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Prall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9159</guid>
		<description>Andrew McCegney paints quite a scary future, but I think this extreme pessimism is not justified. On the question of Ontario solar panels competing against cheaper Chinese imports, first, China has aggressive RES targets and are set to absorb the lion&#039;s share of their own output; second, Ontario&#039;s Green Energy Act has a minimum Ontario content rule that steps up to 60% next January, and the rules make it impossible to meet that without some Ontario-made PV and inverters. Both are good high-tech, value added products that create skilled employment.
As for the electoral calculation, it&#039;s anybody&#039;s guess, but I&#039;m not convinced the public will blame McGuinty for the recession, nor decide the election on the RES.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew McCegney paints quite a scary future, but I think this extreme pessimism is not justified. On the question of Ontario solar panels competing against cheaper Chinese imports, first, China has aggressive RES targets and are set to absorb the lion&#8217;s share of their own output; second, Ontario&#8217;s Green Energy Act has a minimum Ontario content rule that steps up to 60% next January, and the rules make it impossible to meet that without some Ontario-made PV and inverters. Both are good high-tech, value added products that create skilled employment.<br />
As for the electoral calculation, it&#8217;s anybody&#8217;s guess, but I&#8217;m not convinced the public will blame McGuinty for the recession, nor decide the election on the RES.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Childs</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2010/01/25/samsung-deal-criticism-justified-but-missing-the-bigger-picture/comment-page-1/#comment-9146</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Childs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 01:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=2086#comment-9146</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m shocked--shocked!--to find government intervening in the energy industry!

Seriously, I pretty much agree with Tyler&#039;s Star article. A good point: if it had been called a tax break, or called a &quot;temporary refund adjustment&quot;, would people still complain?

And, isn&#039;t this sort of government-led industry incubation is precisely the strategy that brought Korea from third world status to the economic powerhouse in lightning time. We should always be skeptical of this kind of thing--the government needs to be kept on its toes, and we need to be aware of the downsides of protectism/favoritism. But we shouldn&#039;t just reject government involvement for dogmatic or ideological reasons. 

I&#039;d also address the criticism that this sort of thing is just a dressed-up, and expensive, makework program. Even if that were true, it&#039;d be a good thing. No, government shouldn&#039;t keep industry propped up forever. And we probably need to accept that Ontario in the future is not going to be the manufacturing centre it once was.

But too-rapid de-industrialization is disastrous for the many people caught up in it. When a town loses its manufacturing base, the young, the qualified and the mobile can move on, often to better things. But many, many other people don&#039;t. They get stuck in a spiral of declining property values and rising social problems. It&#039;s a huge waste of human capital in an environment of depression, despair, drink and drugs. Post-manufacturing towns die a long, squalid death. I&#039;ve seen this situation up close, in the North of England, and it&#039;s not pretty. So if this deal helps us make it through a rough transition--a transition that may well do in midwestern cities like Detroit, with great human cost--then I say chalk up one more in the &quot;win&quot; column.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m shocked&#8211;shocked!&#8211;to find government intervening in the energy industry!</p>
<p>Seriously, I pretty much agree with Tyler&#8217;s Star article. A good point: if it had been called a tax break, or called a &#8220;temporary refund adjustment&#8221;, would people still complain?</p>
<p>And, isn&#8217;t this sort of government-led industry incubation is precisely the strategy that brought Korea from third world status to the economic powerhouse in lightning time. We should always be skeptical of this kind of thing&#8211;the government needs to be kept on its toes, and we need to be aware of the downsides of protectism/favoritism. But we shouldn&#8217;t just reject government involvement for dogmatic or ideological reasons. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d also address the criticism that this sort of thing is just a dressed-up, and expensive, makework program. Even if that were true, it&#8217;d be a good thing. No, government shouldn&#8217;t keep industry propped up forever. And we probably need to accept that Ontario in the future is not going to be the manufacturing centre it once was.</p>
<p>But too-rapid de-industrialization is disastrous for the many people caught up in it. When a town loses its manufacturing base, the young, the qualified and the mobile can move on, often to better things. But many, many other people don&#8217;t. They get stuck in a spiral of declining property values and rising social problems. It&#8217;s a huge waste of human capital in an environment of depression, despair, drink and drugs. Post-manufacturing towns die a long, squalid death. I&#8217;ve seen this situation up close, in the North of England, and it&#8217;s not pretty. So if this deal helps us make it through a rough transition&#8211;a transition that may well do in midwestern cities like Detroit, with great human cost&#8211;then I say chalk up one more in the &#8220;win&#8221; column.</p>
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