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	<title>Comments on: When new energy-efficient technology merely encourages waste</title>
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	<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/</link>
	<description>Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market</description>
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		<title>By: Cyril R.</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-6173</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyril R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-6173</guid>
		<description>Thorium is also a big energy source, 1 gram can deliver 8000 kWh of electricity at your socket.

With at least a million metric tonnes of proven thorium reserves, that&#039;s 8,000,000 TWh electricity delivered. With global electricity use at 15,000 TWh this puts the proven reserves at well over 500 years of supply. It gets better when you realize that thorium is really cheap; a gram would only cost several cents at today&#039;s spot price. Several cents for 8000 kWh (much more than my yearly use) is a really good bargain for fuel costs. Even a ten-fold increase in thorium prices wouldn&#039;t be noticed in the electricity bill by most... but it would make much more thorium economically recoverable.

The real trick will be how to make a lot of thorium reactors quickly and cheaply, but it seems worth a shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thorium is also a big energy source, 1 gram can deliver 8000 kWh of electricity at your socket.</p>
<p>With at least a million metric tonnes of proven thorium reserves, that&#8217;s 8,000,000 TWh electricity delivered. With global electricity use at 15,000 TWh this puts the proven reserves at well over 500 years of supply. It gets better when you realize that thorium is really cheap; a gram would only cost several cents at today&#8217;s spot price. Several cents for 8000 kWh (much more than my yearly use) is a really good bargain for fuel costs. Even a ten-fold increase in thorium prices wouldn&#8217;t be noticed in the electricity bill by most&#8230; but it would make much more thorium economically recoverable.</p>
<p>The real trick will be how to make a lot of thorium reactors quickly and cheaply, but it seems worth a shot.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyril R.</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-6172</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyril R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-6172</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll second Paul C here. Sure, a little bit of waste in this luxury consumer item. But that&#039;s short sighted. These kind of niche markets are important for early market adoption and provide an avenue for further supply chain efficiency, funds for more R&amp;D, gradual scale up of production leading to more and more mass manufacturing economies... 

The real paradox about Jevons&#039; paradox, is that it has never been conclusively proven in a quantitative way. The causality is highly questionable, as there are many factors at play and the simple paradox that Jevon thought of doesn&#039;t have much explanotory power in the real world. For example, it omits population growth (Jevon lived a LONG time ago), as a primary impactor on resource use. And yet Jevon&#039;s paradox is often used as some argument against efficiency to promote some hidden agenda by propagandists. Usually, this concerns either nuclear propagadists or doomers that want to go &quot;back to nature&quot; or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll second Paul C here. Sure, a little bit of waste in this luxury consumer item. But that&#8217;s short sighted. These kind of niche markets are important for early market adoption and provide an avenue for further supply chain efficiency, funds for more R&amp;D, gradual scale up of production leading to more and more mass manufacturing economies&#8230; </p>
<p>The real paradox about Jevons&#8217; paradox, is that it has never been conclusively proven in a quantitative way. The causality is highly questionable, as there are many factors at play and the simple paradox that Jevon thought of doesn&#8217;t have much explanotory power in the real world. For example, it omits population growth (Jevon lived a LONG time ago), as a primary impactor on resource use. And yet Jevon&#8217;s paradox is often used as some argument against efficiency to promote some hidden agenda by propagandists. Usually, this concerns either nuclear propagadists or doomers that want to go &#8220;back to nature&#8221; or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5997</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5997</guid>
		<description>I agree with blue_baby in that the general trend of technology has been toward lighter, faster, cheaper, and cleaner over the decades. 150 years ago burning coal for steam engines was the leading edge technology, and 50 years ago it was nuclear. Now it&#039;s renewable energy sources. 

Similarly with the use of technology - LED table lights are much safer than candles. 

I agree, great posts Tyler!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with blue_baby in that the general trend of technology has been toward lighter, faster, cheaper, and cleaner over the decades. 150 years ago burning coal for steam engines was the leading edge technology, and 50 years ago it was nuclear. Now it&#8217;s renewable energy sources. </p>
<p>Similarly with the use of technology &#8211; LED table lights are much safer than candles. </p>
<p>I agree, great posts Tyler!</p>
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		<title>By: blue_baby</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5994</link>
		<dc:creator>blue_baby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5994</guid>
		<description>Hi Tyler. Just saw your post. Great post. I indeed have a neighbour who leaves its LED Christmas lights on permanently now (365 days. 24/7, yes - even during the day!). That&#039;s a clear example of perverse energy efficiency impact. However, these same LED Christmas lights now come in a solar version (only possible due to LED energy efficiency), which alleviates this very problem. So I do believe that technology leads the way forward.

Now on the issue of LED table ambiance lighting. First, as Paul C. mentioned, this is a market making application, where the price is more elastic than in general lighting applications. Second, and perhaps more relevant to your post, the competition is actually candle lighting, not electrical lighting in this particular scenario (just think about restaurants, etc. as a prime market for table ambiance light). As such, I believe that LED table lights (embedded in coasters, corks or otherwise) are very beneficial for the environment as they are much cleaner than burning candles. Note that there are rechargeable versions of such devices (I have one of these) which handles the buy-and-throw-away issue.

I personnally tend to disagree with the hypothesis that energy efficiency drives up energy consumption. Maybe a bit, but not more than to offset the benefits of energy efficiency (I agree with Scatter&#039;s post, and would also add home energy efficiency: I have had my home insulated, it&#039;s now a bit more comfortable in winter, but the primary impact was a drastic reduction in energy consumption).

Anyway, great discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tyler. Just saw your post. Great post. I indeed have a neighbour who leaves its LED Christmas lights on permanently now (365 days. 24/7, yes &#8211; even during the day!). That&#8217;s a clear example of perverse energy efficiency impact. However, these same LED Christmas lights now come in a solar version (only possible due to LED energy efficiency), which alleviates this very problem. So I do believe that technology leads the way forward.</p>
<p>Now on the issue of LED table ambiance lighting. First, as Paul C. mentioned, this is a market making application, where the price is more elastic than in general lighting applications. Second, and perhaps more relevant to your post, the competition is actually candle lighting, not electrical lighting in this particular scenario (just think about restaurants, etc. as a prime market for table ambiance light). As such, I believe that LED table lights (embedded in coasters, corks or otherwise) are very beneficial for the environment as they are much cleaner than burning candles. Note that there are rechargeable versions of such devices (I have one of these) which handles the buy-and-throw-away issue.</p>
<p>I personnally tend to disagree with the hypothesis that energy efficiency drives up energy consumption. Maybe a bit, but not more than to offset the benefits of energy efficiency (I agree with Scatter&#8217;s post, and would also add home energy efficiency: I have had my home insulated, it&#8217;s now a bit more comfortable in winter, but the primary impact was a drastic reduction in energy consumption).</p>
<p>Anyway, great discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: gopher65</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5990</link>
		<dc:creator>gopher65</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5990</guid>
		<description>I just realized that I made a logical error in coming up with that &quot;372 million year supply of deuterium fuel in the oceans&quot; bit. I assumed *total* conversion of mass to energy, when that is nowhere near the case. In reality there is closer to a 500,000 year supply of deuterium fuel in the oceans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just realized that I made a logical error in coming up with that &#8220;372 million year supply of deuterium fuel in the oceans&#8221; bit. I assumed *total* conversion of mass to energy, when that is nowhere near the case. In reality there is closer to a 500,000 year supply of deuterium fuel in the oceans.</p>
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		<title>By: mattbg</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5967</link>
		<dc:creator>mattbg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5967</guid>
		<description>@ Paul C, you are essentially agreeing with Tyler. The issue is not the technical genius but the overall increase in energy consumption that these efficiencies lead to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Paul C, you are essentially agreeing with Tyler. The issue is not the technical genius but the overall increase in energy consumption that these efficiencies lead to.</p>
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		<title>By: mattbg</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5966</link>
		<dc:creator>mattbg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5966</guid>
		<description>The problem is called Jevons&#039;s paradox. The cell phone is one huge example of this problem. In their current form factor, they would not be possible without extremely efficient processors, displays, and software and newer batteries that store power more densely. They would not be as small or as long-lasting without big advancements in these areas, and size and longevity have contributed to their mass appeal (i.e. the ability to fit into a pocket, and to not have to be charged every 12 hours).

If you dig through the computer science and engineering research, you will find lots of work being done on the efficiency of small electronics and much of it is aimed at finding newer, broader applications where the status quo produces electronics that are too inefficient to currently provide solutions.... and so they are not used.

Also, think about the prospect of everything we buy containing an RFID tag. Or the massive new market that cheaper cars will produce: gasoline is not expensive to buy, but for many people in developing countries, the cost of the cars that consume it is a barrier to significant consumption of that fuel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is called Jevons&#8217;s paradox. The cell phone is one huge example of this problem. In their current form factor, they would not be possible without extremely efficient processors, displays, and software and newer batteries that store power more densely. They would not be as small or as long-lasting without big advancements in these areas, and size and longevity have contributed to their mass appeal (i.e. the ability to fit into a pocket, and to not have to be charged every 12 hours).</p>
<p>If you dig through the computer science and engineering research, you will find lots of work being done on the efficiency of small electronics and much of it is aimed at finding newer, broader applications where the status quo produces electronics that are too inefficient to currently provide solutions&#8230;. and so they are not used.</p>
<p>Also, think about the prospect of everything we buy containing an RFID tag. Or the massive new market that cheaper cars will produce: gasoline is not expensive to buy, but for many people in developing countries, the cost of the cars that consume it is a barrier to significant consumption of that fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: Whiplash: The Energy Efficiency News of June 22-26, 2009 &#124; Energy Circle</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5955</link>
		<dc:creator>Whiplash: The Energy Efficiency News of June 22-26, 2009 &#124; Energy Circle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5955</guid>
		<description>[...] for better, please. Clean Break pointed out that Sylvania has launched a line of illuminated party treats, ranging from wine bottle stoppers to coasters. While all of the battery-operated table dressings [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for better, please. Clean Break pointed out that Sylvania has launched a line of illuminated party treats, ranging from wine bottle stoppers to coasters. While all of the battery-operated table dressings [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C from Austin</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5952</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C from Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5952</guid>
		<description>I really like your columns Tyler, usually agree with most of them-  but I think this is a good thing that Sylvania is doing- they are looking for new applications/markets for their LED production- in the end, this will increase production of LED lights, which will ramp up accectance and usuage, and bring down cost.  And who knows, perhaps they will also come up with some as yet unforseen uses for LED&#039;s as well.  I am reminded that when Intel first started, it was looking at ways to market and use their IC chips- it wasn&#039;t until later that the they hit the jackpot with microprocessors;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like your columns Tyler, usually agree with most of them-  but I think this is a good thing that Sylvania is doing- they are looking for new applications/markets for their LED production- in the end, this will increase production of LED lights, which will ramp up accectance and usuage, and bring down cost.  And who knows, perhaps they will also come up with some as yet unforseen uses for LED&#8217;s as well.  I am reminded that when Intel first started, it was looking at ways to market and use their IC chips- it wasn&#8217;t until later that the they hit the jackpot with microprocessors;-)</p>
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		<title>By: gopher65</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2009/06/26/when-new-energy-efficient-technology-merely-encourages-waste/comment-page-1/#comment-5944</link>
		<dc:creator>gopher65</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 04:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanbreak.ca/?p=1712#comment-5944</guid>
		<description>That should have read &quot;we&#039;re in one of the *valleys&quot; of the production demand graph, not &quot;we&#039;re in one of the values&quot;. Grrr. I hate it when I typo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That should have read &#8220;we&#8217;re in one of the *valleys&#8221; of the production demand graph, not &#8220;we&#8217;re in one of the values&#8221;. Grrr. I hate it when I typo.</p>
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