Comments on: Scheer: Ontario could go 100 per cent renewable

By: Cyril R.

Cyril R. — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:35:17 +0000

One other thing. I’d like to point out the potential for underground pumped hydro storage. There is a huge potential pumped hydro storage resource in the form of abandoned mines deep underground. Many large abandoned mine shafts at reasonable depth would be suitable as lower resevoir for hydro storage, with the upper resevoir in an (artificial) lake on the surface. Since the lower resevoir already exists, the cost could be very low. Something worth investigating I think, if you have the time, Tyler. I couldn’t find good data on the suitability of certain rock/mine types (eg limestone mines, salt mines etc.) and on the amount of abandoned mines available.

By: Cyril R.

Cyril R. — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:29:25 +0000

It is simply not true that you need simple cycel gas turbines for large amounts of wind on a grid. Combined cycle gas turbines have ramp up times of less than 10 minutes – wind can be predicted with very high accuracy on a timescale of hours so even if single cycle gas turbines are used for the period in between it would only ‘waste’ a tiny amount of additional natural gas compared to the base case. In practice, grid control electronics and short term energy storage may be more useful for this purpose, but we’re not talking about large amounts of fossil fuel in the first place.

By: Paul C from Austin

Paul C from Austin — Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:22:49 +0000

A most interesting discussion! And, after reading the comments here, I see the many problems with this idea- but when I first read it, I was struck with the simplicity of it- of just looking at things from a new perspective. So, even if using Hydro to ballance out Wind is not going to work, at least in a lot of places, hopefully this type of thinking-outside-the-box can open up some new avenues of thought to find new methods of utilizing renewables in a way that does not negatively impact our power needs. Good article and discussion, Tyler;-)

By: Kevin LeGrand

Kevin LeGrand — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 04:14:58 +0000

Anyone know anything about Eden Energy and this Hythane mix (20%Hydrogen80%NG)?

http://www.hythane.com/upload/editor/File/EH_Release_BW.pdf

By: admin

admin — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:34:52 +0000

Great discussion, folks. Thanks for contributing and enlightening me a bit.

By: Bulldogge

Bulldogge — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:53:52 +0000

The fuel for the majority of Ontario’s hydroelectric plants comes up river from the tailrace (exit) of another plant (sometimes hours or days away). “Spilling” water upstream causes inefficiencies further down the chain. Take a look at OPG’s web site in the River System’s area http://www.opg.com/safety/water/river/ and see how it all works together.

By: Chris Winter

Chris Winter — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:27:04 +0000

Last January, when we launched our five year plan to shift Ontario onto the conserver society path, we included two challenge target (in consultation with our colleagues) related to Ontario’s electricity load: 1. Ontario peak demand will be 20,000 megawatts by 2020; and 2. We will generate 5,000 MW of renewable power by 2012 and 20,000 MW by 2020.

Put the conservation and the renewable targets together and you get a 100% renewable scenario, as Scheer says.

From our work this year, and from our recent Conservation Summit, I’ve come to the conclusion that Ontario has a serious capacity deficit with respect to conservation: we lack the high level coordination, the major economic instruments (pricing and incentives), the physical infrastructure (from wires to bike lanes), the economic infrastructure (green and local jobs) and the social infrastructure (effective community-focused support programs) required for an orderly transition to a conserver society model.

We have our work cut out for us, that’s for sure. The one thing that gives me hope is the sheer (no pun intended) numbers of individuals, groups and businesses that are making a serious commitment to green leadership. Thanks Tyler, and keep it up everyone!

By: Kai

Kai — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:09:12 +0000

A better option than low efficiency gas burning plants for load following is cogeneration – that is high efficiency gas (or other fuels) providing double service producing power when needed for the grid and providing heat to buildings and industries. It can also provide baseload electricity if needed. This is a huge untapped resource in Ontario, and is extremely widely used throughout Europe, Japan and California. It is largely untapped here because it would be a very serious competitor to nuclear power and that lobby is far stronger.

By: BC Green

BC Green — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:25:18 +0000

The idea of making hydrogen with surplus wind energy – or night surplus energy is probably a good idea – but the idea of using that energy to displace natural gas is even better. Ontario exports electricity to Quebec most nights at prices that are less than about 2 cents/kWh. At the same time, the province burns large amounts of natural gas for heat – that costs about 5-6 cents for the same amount of delivered heat as a kWh of electricity. The energy is exported because the IESO cannot reduce capacity without incurring more costs (steam plants) or spilling water at hydro plants.

Making hydrogen will be great in the future – when there is a market – but Ontario could reduce exports and use the energy at home to displace natural gas and GHG emissions NOW… When unexpected wind blows at night, it too could be used to displace gas instead of exporting it at low prices as is done in Denmark.

Most people look at the provinces with hydro storage (BC, Manitoba and Quebec) as lucky… Ontario has access to large amounts of natural gas storage that can be used in almost the same way…

By: Tom Konrad

Tom Konrad — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:02:34 +0000

I don’t know the specifics for Ontairo, but typically, where Hydorpower is flexible, it is already used for peaking, just as in Ontario. In the US, however, much of the constraint is due to water law, and required flows rather than reservoir size, so there is some potential for imporvement, even if it is a legal nightmare.

The constraint you mention about how power is dispatched is not a problem, however, since utility planners usually consider opportunity cost, as well as running costs. The opportunity cost of using stored hydro when electricity is cheap is that you will not be able to use it when power is expensive, so which is a trade no rational business would make.