Comments on: Flex-fuel first, electrification second: Zubrin http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/ Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:38:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1960 Anonymous Mon, 05 May 2008 19:48:04 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1960 FLEX FUEL IS NOTHING BUT A SCAPE GOAT. Really. Why do you think GM / Chevy / Ford are so interested in it and are already going forward with making their fleets 'flex fuel capable'? Because It's cheap, makes them look good and requires little change on their parts. Oh wait.. and the biggest thing? It allows them a free ticket to escape penalties based on the US Gov's Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards (CAFE). You see, since only 15% of the 'fuel' pumped into the tank is actually petroleum based (ie. pumped out of an oil well) they only get counted on that 15%. The corn portion (85%in e85) is a get out of jail free card. The problems are ovbious and painful. (A) that no one fills up on ethanol. So really that 15% is false. (B) ethanol is hugely energy intensive and is NOT carbon neutral. (C) they put the flex fuel badge on SUV's to make them 'green' (D) they don't bother producing more efficient cars. It's a way that they can keep doing business as usual and please the fleet emission averages without actually doing a thing. So instead of creating more efficient vehicles using EV or hybrid technology (more expensive up front) they produce a bunch of fuel injectors and fuel filters, toss them on SUV's and in the 'CAFE numbers' they look as green as a Prius. FLEX FUEL IS NOTHING BUT A SCAPE GOAT.

Really. Why do you think GM / Chevy / Ford are so interested in it and are already going forward with making their fleets ‘flex fuel capable’?

Because It’s cheap, makes them look good and requires little change on their parts. Oh wait.. and the biggest thing? It allows them a free ticket to escape penalties based on the US Gov’s Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards (CAFE). You see, since only 15% of the ‘fuel’ pumped into the tank is actually petroleum based (ie. pumped out of an oil well) they only get counted on that 15%. The corn portion (85%in e85) is a get out of jail free card.

The problems are ovbious and painful.

(A) that no one fills up on ethanol. So really that 15% is false.

(B) ethanol is hugely energy intensive and is NOT carbon neutral.

(C) they put the flex fuel badge on SUV’s to make them ‘green’

(D) they don’t bother producing more efficient cars.

It’s a way that they can keep doing business as usual and please the fleet emission averages without actually doing a thing. So instead of creating more efficient vehicles using EV or hybrid technology (more expensive up front) they produce a bunch of fuel injectors and fuel filters, toss them on SUV’s and in the ‘CAFE numbers’ they look as green as a Prius.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1959 Anonymous Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:27:16 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1959 I WISH THAT ALL THE PUBLIC KNEW THAT ICE (internal combustion engine) IN ANY FORM IS SO INEFFICIENT THAT ANY ALTERNATIVE TO CONTINUE WITH THIS PROCESS HAS NO FUTURE. IT'S THAT BLACK AND WHITE. IF PEOPLE WHO HEAT THEIR HOUSE 3,000 A YEAR WENT TO 18 TO 20% EFFICIENCY AND COST 15,000 A YEAR, THEY GET IT QUICKLY, THATS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO WITH BIOFULES ETC. Heating your house with oil or gas is a good use of fossil fuels, Because we are getting 80 to 90% efficiency that is why it is 3,000 a year, running a transportation system on it, is irrational at best. Electricity is 90% efficient to the motor and drive systems. Base on this ALL OUR EFFORTS SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON ELECTRIC CARS. 1st on plug in hybrids, then on electrical storage, nothing else makes any sense either economic or solving the global warming problem. Forget about the short term 5 to 10 years and focus all of our energies in the right place. Translation, there are lots of people who have an interest in keeping us on the current ice transportation model. DON'T LET THEM DO THAT... If you put 100 billion in electric storage research, we be there in 10 years. not only that, the industry and businesses that would spin off of this would result in not only solving our energy and global warming problems, but would create such a huge new industry that would spur our world economy for well past 20 years. I WISH THAT ALL THE PUBLIC KNEW THAT ICE (internal combustion engine) IN ANY FORM IS SO INEFFICIENT THAT ANY ALTERNATIVE TO CONTINUE WITH THIS PROCESS HAS NO FUTURE. IT’S THAT BLACK AND WHITE. IF PEOPLE WHO HEAT THEIR HOUSE 3,000 A YEAR WENT TO 18 TO 20% EFFICIENCY AND COST 15,000 A YEAR, THEY GET IT QUICKLY, THATS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO WITH BIOFULES ETC.

Heating your house with oil or gas is a good use of fossil fuels, Because we are getting 80 to 90% efficiency that is why it is 3,000 a year, running a transportation system on it, is irrational at best.

Electricity is 90% efficient to the motor and drive systems. Base on this ALL OUR EFFORTS SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON ELECTRIC CARS. 1st on plug in hybrids, then on electrical storage, nothing else makes any sense either economic or solving the global warming problem. Forget about the short term 5 to 10 years and focus all of our energies in the right place. Translation, there are lots of people who have an interest in keeping us on the current ice transportation model.

DON’T LET THEM DO THAT… If you put 100 billion in electric storage research, we be there in 10 years. not only that, the industry and businesses that would spin off of this would result in not only solving our energy and global warming problems, but would create such a huge new industry that would spur our world economy for well past 20 years.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1958 Anonymous Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:30:09 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1958 Given the long time it takes to turnover the car fleet, a flex-fuel requirement in the near-term would at least give a significant portion of the drivers the option to use any locally available non-petroleum fuels in future. For $150 a vehicle, it is common sense to give ourselves options. Ethanol has shown where picking favourites gets us. No point ignoring potential sources of methanol for fuel, they could add up. Methanol can be made from logging/sawmill waste among other things, and obviously that is a large industry here. That doesn't mean electrification should come second. Urban electric vehicles are viable now - whether delivery trucks or a small car as a secondary vehicle. Given the long time it takes to turnover the car fleet, a flex-fuel requirement in the near-term would at least give a significant portion of the drivers the option to use any locally available non-petroleum fuels in future. For $150 a vehicle, it is common sense to give ourselves options. Ethanol has shown where picking favourites gets us. No point ignoring potential sources of methanol for fuel, they could add up. Methanol can be made from logging/sawmill waste among other things, and obviously that is a large industry here.
That doesn’t mean electrification should come second. Urban electric vehicles are viable now – whether delivery trucks or a small car as a secondary vehicle.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1957 Anonymous Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:32:10 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1957 I don't think it is a question of whether flex-fuels will be mandated. In my view they already have been. Mr. Zubrin is simply restating the status quo. My belief is that we need to concentrate on open engineering, allowing for the capture and storage of intermittent power on board vehicles and utilize open electrical network infrastructures to allow those same vehicles to contribute overproduction to the grid. Keep in mind that a vehicle mostly sits all day long. And this is during the peak solar hours. I'm sorry to say this, but the Ontario government already realized this and went for Smart Metering (an abomination). It sounds a bit crackpot, but I believe the government and industry are worried about losing control over the population if energy is made too widely and inexpensively available. Can you say "nomad?" Sure, I knew you could. Imagine how much rent will be if energy comes at too low a cost and that to power your daily life you can simply drive 40 km out and back again. It will be flex-fuel first. Hydricity or electricity will come at the price of consuming mass quantities of dysfunctional engineering designed to keep people from mixing and matching systems. This is the standardization of disincentive that plagues computer users from migrating from X-Box to Sony Playstation. Same thing will happen in energy. As far as Mars goes... well, I think he's got a good idea there. We've managed to pick war as the main thrust of human endeavor. When did you see a genius of math graduate from a university and not contribute to R&D for defense either along the way to her degree or as the first step toward lifetime employment attached in some way to the military industrial complex, the auto sector or bio-engineering. I don't want this to start sounding like a manifesto, and it is probably not a good idea to spout off like a maniac that it is all just a lie, so I'll end by saying that we have benefited in Western Society more by the majority of us originating from a cold climate ecosystem with virii than from going to war. My beef with the government of Ontario too is that certain parts of cottage country haven't been opened to Net Metering. My guess is this is gated economics in lieu of the lack of county and municipal guidance on issues of bylaw enforcement than anything else. Too bad officials who like the city don't want to travel and actually work on migrating energy economics or hire the willing staff to do so. The planet mars sounds like a better pyramid than oil and war, that's for sure. On this one we should listen to our neighbor not some Greco-Roman god. -- tim I don’t think it is a question of whether flex-fuels will be mandated. In my view they already have been. Mr. Zubrin is simply restating the status quo.
My belief is that we need to concentrate on open engineering, allowing for the capture and storage of intermittent power on board vehicles and utilize open electrical network infrastructures to allow those same vehicles to contribute overproduction to the grid.
Keep in mind that a vehicle mostly sits all day long. And this is during the peak solar hours. I’m sorry to say this, but the Ontario government already realized this and went for Smart Metering (an abomination).
It sounds a bit crackpot, but I believe the government and industry are worried about losing control over the population if energy is made too widely and inexpensively available.
Can you say “nomad?” Sure, I knew you could.
Imagine how much rent will be if energy comes at too low a cost and that to power your daily life you can simply drive 40 km out and back again.
It will be flex-fuel first. Hydricity or electricity will come at the price of consuming mass quantities of dysfunctional engineering designed to keep people from mixing and matching systems. This is the standardization of disincentive that plagues computer users from migrating from X-Box to Sony Playstation. Same thing will happen in energy.
As far as Mars goes… well, I think he’s got a good idea there. We’ve managed to pick war as the main thrust of human endeavor. When did you see a genius of math graduate from a university and not contribute to R&D for defense either along the way to her degree or as the first step toward lifetime employment attached in some way to the military industrial complex, the auto sector or bio-engineering.
I don’t want this to start sounding like a manifesto, and it is probably not a good idea to spout off like a maniac that it is all just a lie, so I’ll end by saying that we have benefited in Western Society more by the majority of us originating from a cold climate ecosystem with virii than from going to war.
My beef with the government of Ontario too is that certain parts of cottage country haven’t been opened to Net Metering. My guess is this is gated economics in lieu of the lack of county and municipal guidance on issues of bylaw enforcement than anything else. Too bad officials who like the city don’t want to travel and actually work on migrating energy economics or hire the willing staff to do so.
The planet mars sounds like a better pyramid than oil and war, that’s for sure. On this one we should listen to our neighbor not some Greco-Roman god.
– tim

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1932 Anonymous Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:17:43 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1932 There has been plenty of conversation regarding the infrastructure required to power a 'plug-in' transportation sector. Yes. Most of the charging would happen during the night, when nuke plants run idle and demand is at its lowest. If the current demand increased, than capacity can also be increased to follow suit (this can happen quite quickly). I don't feel that there will be any surge due to EV's hitting the road, as the petroleum vehicles will phase out over time. One would hope that EV's would also spur a decentralized power infrastructure, with people installing their own sustainable generating capacity on-site (at home). We can all generate electricity at home through PV and wind - but we cant refine gas. I think there will be much appeal to this and it will really change the way that people think of both energy and transportation. There has been plenty of conversation regarding the infrastructure required to power a ‘plug-in’ transportation sector. Yes. Most of the charging would happen during the night, when nuke plants run idle and demand is at its lowest. If the current demand increased, than capacity can also be increased to follow suit (this can happen quite quickly).

I don’t feel that there will be any surge due to EV’s hitting the road, as the petroleum vehicles will phase out over time.

One would hope that EV’s would also spur a decentralized power infrastructure, with people installing their own sustainable generating capacity on-site (at home). We can all generate electricity at home through PV and wind – but we cant refine gas. I think there will be much appeal to this and it will really change the way that people think of both energy and transportation.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1956 Anonymous Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:24:10 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1956 that's why EV's are logical: http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/2/10/134714/529 Emil M that’s why EV’s are logical: http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/2/10/134714/529

Emil M

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1955 Anonymous Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:06:36 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1955 Why does everyone think that petroleum is the main source of CO2 in the environment? It isn't. Electricity generation and heating are the main culprits. Give flex fuel a chance. Did you hear about this tree in South America that bleeds diesel fuel for sap? An acre will provide 1500 gallons/year compared to an acre of corn which produces 30 gallons/year. Which, unlike the corn process, the fluid can go directly into your diesel car. You want to make huge inroads against CO2 - look at coal plants. That's where most of the CO2 is coming from. Why does everyone think that petroleum is the main source of CO2 in the environment? It isn’t. Electricity generation and heating are the main culprits. Give flex fuel a chance.
Did you hear about this tree in South America that bleeds diesel fuel for sap? An acre will provide 1500 gallons/year compared to an acre of corn which produces 30 gallons/year. Which, unlike the corn process, the fluid can go directly into your diesel car.
You want to make huge inroads against CO2 – look at coal plants. That’s where most of the CO2 is coming from.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1954 Anonymous Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:45:43 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1954 Palm oil plantations are an ecological catastrophe in South East Asia. The ethanol boom in N. America is wasting taxpayers money and productive topsoil. Bio-fuels are an illusory solution. At their worst they are theft from the mouths of the world's poor Palm oil plantations are an ecological catastrophe in South East Asia. The ethanol boom in N. America is wasting taxpayers money and productive topsoil.

Bio-fuels are an illusory solution. At their worst they are theft from the mouths of the world’s poor

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1941 Anonymous Fri, 11 Apr 2008 04:23:58 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1941 I am not sure I ever heard of this idea, but what if we had 50 million hybrids and electric cars, we all plug them in to a special device that has a (In from the grid at night and out to the grid during the day. So lets say 10 million cars are program to feed the grid during the day, Let say you not commuting to work today, so you just leave your car plugged in, we now are load balance the grid, Depending on the demand you could even get more. Now the need to create addtional electric plants are much less needed, I am not sure I ever heard of this idea, but what if we had 50 million hybrids and electric cars, we all plug them in to a special device that has a (In from the grid at night and out to the grid during the day.

So lets say 10 million cars are program to feed the grid during the day, Let say you not commuting to work today, so you just leave your car plugged in, we now are load balance the grid, Depending on the demand you could even get more. Now the need to create addtional electric plants are much less needed,

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/comment-page-1/#comment-1953 Anonymous Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:08:01 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/04/07/flex-fuel-first-electrification-second-zubrin/#comment-1953 Medium term it would make a difference, I think, by dramatically increasing the potential market for high ethanol blends. Still, I'm for electrification first with biofuels used where really unavoidable, like aviation. On the subject of aviation, this may be a place where hydrogen can find a use. Stephen Medium term it would make a difference, I think, by dramatically increasing the potential market for high ethanol blends.

Still, I’m for electrification first with biofuels used where really unavoidable, like aviation. On the subject of aviation, this may be a place where hydrogen can find a use.

Stephen

]]>