Comments on: “Green” natural gas? http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/ Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:28:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/comment-page-1/#comment-1680 Anonymous Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:15:24 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/#comment-1680 A lot depends on what those percentages mean. If you take a litre of methane (CH4) and separate it into carbon and hydrogen (H2) you get two litres of hydrogen and a tenth of a teaspoon of black powder. You added energy to split them, and a lot of the energy that you could have had from burning the methane is now trapped in the carbon where, presumably, it will not be released by burning. Methane's energy density is 39 KJ/L, while hydrogen's is 12. So if you convert 10% of the methane to hydrogen it will have 20% of the volume of the rest of the methane. You will have a gas with something like 13% less energy per volume than natural gas. So if you get 7% less CO2 but have to burn 13% more gas and on top of that have to add energy to power the plasma torch, you're no further ahead. A lot depends on what those percentages mean. If you take a litre of methane (CH4) and separate it into carbon and hydrogen (H2) you get two litres of hydrogen and a tenth of a teaspoon of black powder. You added energy to split them, and a lot of the energy that you could have had from burning the methane is now trapped in the carbon where, presumably, it will not be released by burning. Methane’s energy density is 39 KJ/L, while hydrogen’s is 12.

So if you convert 10% of the methane to hydrogen it will have 20% of the volume of the rest of the methane. You will have a gas with something like 13% less energy per volume than natural gas. So if you get 7% less CO2 but have to burn 13% more gas and on top of that have to add energy to power the plasma torch, you’re no further ahead.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/comment-page-1/#comment-1679 Anonymous Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:47:24 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/#comment-1679 natural gas from biogas digestion of the waste stream is the real green natural gas. also natural gas derived from coal deposits using bacteria to yield biogas. It greens up coal, ending mining and leaving the coal mess where it's at. Extracting the natural gas, used in a solid oxide fuel cell/turbine at double the efficiency of a coal plant would reduce GHG. These fuel cells generate waste heat too that can be harvested with cogeneration for heating. Smaller power systems distributed widely over the grid make the difference. The savings over a centralized grid could pay for a lot of renewable energy. amazingdrx natural gas from biogas digestion of the waste stream is the real green natural gas.

also natural gas derived from coal deposits using bacteria to yield biogas. It greens up coal, ending mining and leaving the coal mess where it’s at. Extracting the natural gas, used in a solid oxide fuel cell/turbine at double the efficiency of a coal plant would reduce GHG.

These fuel cells generate waste heat too that can be harvested with cogeneration for heating. Smaller power systems distributed widely over the grid make the difference. The savings over a centralized grid could pay for a lot of renewable energy. amazingdrx

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/comment-page-1/#comment-1678 Anonymous Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:02:25 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/#comment-1678 Sounds like a good idea. I wonder if a variation would work with oil sand sludge, removing hydrogen from the sticky tar for use in natural gas. I cling to the belief that natural gas is more valuable than oil, considering how oil sand production consumes so much natural gas. Darklamp Sounds like a good idea. I wonder if a variation would work with oil sand sludge, removing hydrogen from the sticky tar for use in natural gas. I cling to the belief that natural gas is more valuable than oil, considering how oil sand production consumes so much natural gas.

Darklamp

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/comment-page-1/#comment-1677 Anonymous Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:16:28 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/12/10/green-natural-gas/#comment-1677 One wonders whether that 7% CO2 reduction includes the power input for the plasma. The significant reduction in nitrogen oxides might be the bigger win for AGW as well as local air pollution. This system is really just competing with electrolysis or traditional NG reforming as a means to generate hydrogen. These traditional methods could be combined with carbon sequestration methods, possibly at lower overall cost than this technology. As with everything else it will boil down to the economics. I'm also curious as to whether there are any embrittlement issues with putting 20% hydrogen through gas distribution lines not originally designed for hydrogen. Hythane is another company touting the benefits of mixing hydrogen with natural gas. One wonders whether that 7% CO2 reduction includes the power input for the plasma. The significant reduction in nitrogen oxides might be the bigger win for AGW as well as local air pollution.

This system is really just competing with electrolysis or traditional NG reforming as a means to generate hydrogen. These traditional methods could be combined with carbon sequestration methods, possibly at lower overall cost than this technology. As with everything else it will boil down to the economics.

I’m also curious as to whether there are any embrittlement issues with putting 20% hydrogen through gas distribution lines not originally designed for hydrogen.

Hythane is another company touting the benefits of mixing hydrogen with natural gas.

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