Comments on: Still waiting for costs to fall http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/ Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:28:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1112 Anonymous Sat, 14 Jul 2007 05:23:10 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1112 For a long list of insulation providers check out http://www.getwithgreen.com. They also have a shorter list of solar attic fans! For a long list of insulation providers check out http://www.getwithgreen.com. They also have a shorter list of solar attic fans!

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1116 Anonymous Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:57:43 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1116 In addition to the solar water heater that has been suggested, you might want to look into drain heat recovery units. If the configuration of your house allows for easy installation, these can have very low payback periods and are much less initial capital than many other retrofits. In addition to the solar water heater that has been suggested, you might want to look into drain heat recovery units. If the configuration of your house allows for easy installation, these can have very low payback periods and are much less initial capital than many other retrofits.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1115 Anonymous Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:37:42 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1115 Tyler, are these costs US or Canadian dollars? I'm astonished at the low efficiency and high cost of these tiles: 5.6 peak watts per square foot is only about 5.6% efficiency, and $198/tile is $35/watt, or 5-8x the normal rate for PV panels (assuming $US)! On pricing: increased demands from subsidies should raise prices temporarily, in order to attract more suppliers - that's normal market dynamics. The real question is: are there artificial barriers to entry into the market for new suppliers, like unreasonable licensing rules? On cost reduction: the best way to reduce costs is for the building industry to make solar tiles a standard part of new-construction, and roof replacement. Currently PV is primarily a hand-crafted, retrofit industry that is guaranteed to be excessively expensive. Standardization and integration into new home construction/roof replacement would reduce installation costs dramatically. California has moved in this direction by mandating solar as a standard option by 2011. Tyler, are these costs US or Canadian dollars?

I’m astonished at the low efficiency and high cost of these tiles: 5.6 peak watts per square foot is only about 5.6% efficiency, and $198/tile is $35/watt, or 5-8x the normal rate for PV panels (assuming $US)!

On pricing: increased demands from subsidies should raise prices temporarily, in order to attract more suppliers – that’s normal market dynamics. The real question is: are there artificial barriers to entry into the market for new suppliers, like unreasonable licensing rules?

On cost reduction: the best way to reduce costs is for the building industry to make solar tiles a standard part of new-construction, and roof replacement. Currently PV is primarily a hand-crafted, retrofit industry that is guaranteed to be excessively expensive. Standardization and integration into new home construction/roof replacement would reduce installation costs dramatically. California has moved in this direction by mandating solar as a standard option by 2011.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1114 Anonymous Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:38:55 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1114 Are you familiar with a (residential) demand control system (DCS)? It is an incredible product that would seem to fall into the clean energy category. A DCS works with utility time-of-use rates that have a demand billing component. These systems can pay for themselves with utility savings in less than two years but, more importantly, at least for this discussion, they have a huge impact on the environment. Allow me to explain; at my home on peak demands (kW) prior to installing a DCS were 20 to 30. I now control my demands to a 7 to 10 with no inconvenience to my lifestyle. On a large scale this would allow an existing power plant to serve more customers. Consider this; lets say power plant X had a capacity of 25,000 homes, if those same 25,000 homes (with at least electric hot water and an electric clothes dryer) used a DCS the utility would be able to add another 14,000 homes to that plant. Admittedly, this system does not reduce how much energy one uses but rather shifts energy to avoid peaks. And it is peaks that create the need for more power plants. Residential customers are very inefficient users of electricity as are churches and that is why these systems can be so effective. The way it works is the system measures all of the electricity coming into the home. When it sees that usage is going to exceed a preset limit it starts shutting things off like the water heater, heating element of a clothes dryer and HVAC. Demand is measured in 15 or 30 minute periods so it only control for 3 to 7 minutes to maintain that preset limit. Once that demand period is over it turns on anything that remained off and starts the cycle over again. I know of two companies that manufacture such systems; Brayden Automation and Dencor. I represent the Brayden lines. The biggest set back for DCS is that they require the proper electric rate schedule to be of any financial benefit to the customer. I am in Western North Carolina and in this area Progress Energy, Duke Energy and Dominion Virginia Power all have time-of-use demand rate schedules. I was amazed to find out there are no time-of-use demand schedules in California. I understand from Bill Brayden that someone affiliated with his company spent 2 years lobbying California utilities and legislators for time-of-use rates and got nowhere. With time-of-use rates customers are given the incentive to reduce their demand, with no inconvenience to their lifestyle, and allow uilities to avoid rolling blackouts. I would be interested to see what you and your readers think. Part of the utility problem is most utilities make money by building power plants and not by implementing efficiencies. The rules set by Public Utility Commissions are starting to change in the direction of efficiencies. Thank you, David Johnson Are you familiar with a (residential) demand control system (DCS)? It is an incredible product that would seem to fall into the clean energy category. A DCS works with utility time-of-use rates that have a demand billing component. These systems can pay for themselves with utility savings in less than two years but, more importantly, at least for this discussion, they have a huge impact on the environment. Allow me to explain; at my home on peak demands (kW) prior to installing a DCS were 20 to 30. I now control my demands to a 7 to 10 with no inconvenience to my lifestyle. On a large scale this would allow an existing power plant to serve more customers. Consider this; lets say power plant X had a capacity of 25,000 homes, if those same 25,000 homes (with at least electric hot water and an electric clothes dryer) used a DCS the utility would be able to add another 14,000 homes to that plant. Admittedly, this system does not reduce how much energy one uses but rather shifts energy to avoid peaks. And it is peaks that create the need for more power plants.

Residential customers are very inefficient users of electricity as are churches and that is why these systems can be so effective. The way it works is the system measures all of the electricity coming into the home. When it sees that usage is going to exceed a preset limit it starts shutting things off like the water heater, heating element of a clothes dryer and HVAC. Demand is measured in 15 or 30 minute periods so it only control for 3 to 7 minutes to maintain that preset limit. Once that demand period is over it turns on anything that remained off and starts the cycle over again.

I know of two companies that manufacture such systems; Brayden Automation and Dencor. I represent the Brayden lines.

The biggest set back for DCS is that they require the proper electric rate schedule to be of any financial benefit to the customer. I am in Western North Carolina and in this area Progress Energy, Duke Energy and Dominion Virginia Power all have time-of-use demand rate schedules.

I was amazed to find out there are no time-of-use demand schedules in California. I understand from Bill Brayden that someone affiliated with his company spent 2 years lobbying California utilities and legislators for time-of-use rates and got nowhere. With time-of-use rates customers are given the incentive to reduce their demand, with no inconvenience to their lifestyle, and allow uilities to avoid rolling blackouts.

I would be interested to see what you and your readers think. Part of the utility problem is most utilities make money by building power plants and not by implementing efficiencies. The rules set by Public Utility Commissions are starting to change in the direction of efficiencies.

Thank you,

David Johnson

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1113 Anonymous Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:11:20 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1113 Tyler, You should look closely at the UniSolar Shingles, as they have <strong>PFOS</strong>'s, a toxic bioaccumulating flrocarbon coating on them (Teflon like). At the last Society of Toxicology (SOT) meeting in the USA, March 07, 20-30% of the papers and posters were on PFOA and PFOS's! A good story here for a enviro reporter. These are the next PCB like bioaccumulating toxic disaster. They are the wonder products (sic) showing up on every thing from solar panals, metal roofing, to carpeting. 3M stopped making Teflon years ago for this reason even though they were making large profits on it, that is if you didnt include the enviromental costs to the rest of the world. Would love to use a product like this also on our pasive solar house, needing a new roof on the south side, and almost ordered it, but found the coatings used are bad news. Im looking to other makers, although coming from Michigan, I which UniSolar (a Michigan co.) would use another coating as other thin film makers have. We also are looking at geothermal heating. Over a long period the cost should be recouped, and before that the house should also have a higher resale value, expecailly as energy costs go up. Tyler,

You should look closely at the UniSolar Shingles, as

they have PFOS‘s, a toxic bioaccumulating flrocarbon coating on them (Teflon like).

At the last Society of Toxicology (SOT) meeting in the USA, March 07, 20-30% of the papers and posters were on PFOA and PFOS’s! A good story here for a enviro reporter. These are the next PCB like bioaccumulating toxic disaster.

They are the wonder products (sic) showing up on every thing from solar panals, metal roofing, to carpeting.

3M stopped making Teflon years ago for this reason even though they were making large profits on it, that is if you didnt include the enviromental costs to the rest of the world.

Would love to use a product like this also on our pasive solar house, needing a new roof on the south side, and almost ordered it, but found the coatings used are bad news.

Im looking to other makers, although coming from Michigan, I which UniSolar (a Michigan co.) would use another coating as other thin film makers have.

We also are looking at geothermal heating. Over a long period the cost should be recouped, and before that the house should also have a higher resale value, expecailly as energy costs go up.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1111 Anonymous Sat, 21 Apr 2007 03:44:01 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1111 Hey Tyler, Congrats on the new pad. I have done some fairly extensive research into solar PV systems over the past number of years and may be able to help you out in that area, as far as finding deals on the market is concerned. Of course, I know that I don't have to tell you that reducing your loads is the most important thing you could do. There are LOTS of new and innovative products on the market in this area too. Many are now mainstream as well. Insulation is KEY. Go for cellulose fill in your attic and if you can, get more blown into your walls (can be expensive). Windows are also a biggie... As far as lighting goes, you may be able to use LED's for track lighting. I have had some success with a retrofitted IKEA system ;) Cheap. As for deals in solar.. Ping me and I will send you some links. The best place I can point you to is www.sunelec.com out of Florida. You can get pallet deals on panels that will save you a bundle. It's too bad you didnt ask a year or so ago - they had crates of discontinued intergrated roofing panels they were flogging. Other things you can do - Since you mentioned the water heater needing replacement, go tankless for your water heating and/or use solar thermal (vacumm tubes are getting cheaper and are great for our climate) to pre-heat a tank before the tankless system gets to it. Canadian company www.yoursolarhome.com also has some interestng heat exchanger products. Try and get as much natural cooling and lighting into your house as possible. A skylight that also provides ventilation works wonders (or even just a seasonal / solar powered attic fan). jon at jonthorpe.com Hey Tyler,

Congrats on the new pad. I have done some fairly extensive research into solar PV systems over the past number of years and may be able to help you out in that area, as far as finding deals on the market is concerned.

Of course, I know that I don’t have to tell you that reducing your loads is the most important thing you could do. There are LOTS of new and innovative products on the market in this area too. Many are now mainstream as well. Insulation is KEY. Go for cellulose fill in your attic and if you can, get more blown into your walls (can be expensive). Windows are also a biggie… As far as lighting goes, you may be able to use LED’s for track lighting. I have had some success with a retrofitted IKEA system ;) Cheap.

As for deals in solar.. Ping me and I will send you some links. The best place I can point you to is http://www.sunelec.com out of Florida. You can get pallet deals on panels that will save you a bundle. It’s too bad you didnt ask a year or so ago – they had crates of discontinued intergrated roofing panels they were flogging.

Other things you can do – Since you mentioned the water heater needing replacement, go tankless for your water heating and/or use solar thermal (vacumm tubes are getting cheaper and are great for our climate) to pre-heat a tank before the tankless system gets to it.

Canadian company http://www.yoursolarhome.com also has some interestng heat exchanger products. Try and get as much natural cooling and lighting into your house as possible. A skylight that also provides ventilation works wonders (or even just a seasonal / solar powered attic fan).

jon at jonthorpe.com

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1110 Anonymous Fri, 20 Apr 2007 03:28:33 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1110 Citizen's Bank of Canada just announced a Green Mortgage, here: https://www.citizensbank.ca/Personal/GreenMortgage/ Citizen’s Bank of Canada just announced a Green Mortgage, here:

https://www.citizensbank.ca/Personal/GreenMortgage/

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1109 Anonymous Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:41:14 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1109 Here's link to the Now House Project, being undertaken in East York, Toronto. It is a Net Zero Energy retrofit of a WWII Veterans Administration home, typical of thousands built post-war across Canada for the returning soldiers. It begins with insulation upgrading: http://nowhouseproject.com/ See also EQuilibrium Housing, a project partnered by a number of entities including CMHC and the Net Zero Energy Home Coalition. Also, Gabriel Draven at Village Technologies just released a study of investment return comparisons between solar thermal and mainstream investment vehicles. He can be contacted at Village Technologies, in Toronto, at http://villagetechnologies.ca/ Here’s link to the Now House Project, being undertaken in East York, Toronto. It is a Net Zero Energy retrofit of a WWII Veterans Administration home, typical of thousands built post-war across Canada for the returning soldiers. It begins with insulation upgrading:

http://nowhouseproject.com/

See also EQuilibrium Housing, a project partnered by a number of entities including CMHC and the Net Zero Energy Home Coalition.

Also, Gabriel Draven at Village Technologies just released a study of investment return comparisons between solar thermal and mainstream investment vehicles. He can be contacted at Village Technologies, in Toronto, at http://villagetechnologies.ca/

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1108 Anonymous Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:01:20 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1108 I was just curious if you looked into the costs of solar thermal for water/space heating. I've heard it's the most cost competative renewable energy source, but I don't know how much it actually costs. I was just curious if you looked into the costs of solar thermal for water/space heating. I’ve heard it’s the most cost competative renewable energy source, but I don’t know how much it actually costs.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/comment-page-1/#comment-1107 Anonymous Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:38:28 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2007/04/17/still-waiting-for-costs-to-fall/#comment-1107 I looked into geothermal and after seeing a friends installation have given up on it. They had a compressor failure while they were away for a few weeks and the electric heating element tried to compensate resulting in a one month electric bill of over $1000. This highlights one of the weaknesses of complicated tech solutions. They are great when they work but it only takes one or two failures to blow all the potential savings. I think a better solution is to radically increase the insulation on your house. I will me moving soon and I am planning a super-insulation retrofit along with installing an energy recovery ventilator. I will be doing a lot of the work myself to save money. I am pretty sure for the cost of a geothermal system I can get better cost savings from just reducing the heating load. I looked into geothermal and after seeing a friends installation have given up on it. They had a compressor failure while they were away for a few weeks and the electric heating element tried to compensate resulting in a one month electric bill of over $1000. This highlights one of the weaknesses of complicated tech solutions. They are great when they work but it only takes one or two failures to blow all the potential savings.

I think a better solution is to radically increase the insulation on your house. I will me moving soon and I am planning a super-insulation retrofit along with installing an energy recovery ventilator. I will be doing a lot of the work myself to save money. I am pretty sure for the cost of a geothermal system I can get better cost savings from just reducing the heating load.

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