Comments on: Ontario puts flesh on standard offer program http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/ Trends, happenings and innovations in the clean technology market Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:42:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-350 Anonymous Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:51:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-350 "For me, the real cost of electricity, including transmission loss and delivery fees, is 42.1 cents/kwh, of which only 5 cents is for the actual electricity. " What ? look at the pricing info at http://www.hydroonenetworks.com/en/customers/residential/rates_pricing/default.asp The price per kwh varies from 9.11c to 10.35c. As far as locking in the price, I wonder if the contracts specify minimum production levels. If the consumer price was ever greater than the selling price, an extension cord would fix the problem :-) “For me, the real cost of electricity, including transmission loss and delivery fees, is 42.1 cents/kwh, of which only 5 cents is for the actual electricity. ”

What ? look at the pricing info at http://www.hydroonenetworks.com/en/customers/residential/rates_pricing/default.asp

The price per kwh varies from 9.11c to 10.35c.

As far as locking in the price, I wonder if the contracts specify minimum production levels. If the consumer price was ever greater than the selling price, an extension cord would fix the problem :-)

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-349 Anonymous Wed, 29 Mar 2006 19:18:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-349 Hi Alan, I didn't think to check in different areas, so my bad. For me, the real cost of electricity, including transmission loss and delivery fees, is 42.1 cents/kwh, of which only 5 cents is for the actual electricity. You are right in that I was saying I didn't want to sell the electricity and now you see why! I'm currently trying to find out what the fixed costs in my bi-monthly bill are, and how the real rate changes as I increase or decrease usage. If my local delivery fees increase even a bit, I will save more money by reducing my energy purchases than I will generate in revenue at 42cents/kwh. If billing were on net usage I don't suppose it would make a difference, but my understanding is that it is two one-way meters will be used and the buyback is locked at $0.42, while my utility company can increase their own fees. Hi Alan,

I didn’t think to check in different areas, so my bad. For me, the real cost of electricity, including transmission loss and delivery fees, is 42.1 cents/kwh, of which only 5 cents is for the actual electricity. You are right in that I was saying I didn’t want to sell the electricity and now you see why! I’m currently trying to find out what the fixed costs in my bi-monthly bill are, and how the real rate changes as I increase or decrease usage. If my local delivery fees increase even a bit, I will save more money by reducing my energy purchases than I will generate in revenue at 42cents/kwh. If billing were on net usage I don’t suppose it would make a difference, but my understanding is that it is two one-way meters will be used and the buyback is locked at $0.42, while my utility company can increase their own fees.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-348 Anonymous Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:52:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-348 In reply to "value of not buying electricity from the province is much greater". There is a vey big difference between producing your own power, and selling it on a standard contract. Why would I consume my own power when I can sell it for .42/KWH. It will be a long time before the consumer price gets that high. That said, I did a calculation of payback at current prices. A 6 KW system costing $50K Cdn, would generate monthly revenue of $310 (based on annual avg of 4.2 sunhours/day) The cost of borrowing $50K amortizing payments over the 20 year contract (at 5.5%) is $344/month. Does not seem like a winner to me ! In reply to “value of not buying electricity from the province is much greater”.

There is a vey big difference between producing your own power, and selling it on a standard contract.

Why would I consume my own power when I can sell it for .42/KWH. It will be a long time before the consumer price gets that high.

That said, I did a calculation of payback at current prices.

A 6 KW system costing $50K Cdn, would generate monthly revenue of $310 (based on annual avg of 4.2 sunhours/day)

The cost of borrowing $50K amortizing payments over the 20 year contract (at 5.5%) is $344/month.

Does not seem like a winner to me !

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-353 Anonymous Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:47:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-353 The law is a nice step - but why set a project ceiling of 10 MW? In the end you're going to get alot of developers trying to work around that limit, clustering projects, to leverage economies of scale while tapping the feed in tariff. This is what's happened in France - decent feed in tariff decreasing over time with a 12 MW wind farm size limit. The small size made the sector less attractive for large players until recently when they started clustering projects and lobbying to lift the limit. The current dearth of turbines will make it difficult to get machines for a 10 MW project and the administrative costs of doing multiple 10 MW projects may make the model less attractive. All in good time I suppose. The law is a nice step – but why set a project ceiling of 10 MW? In the end you’re going to get alot of developers trying to work around that limit, clustering projects, to leverage economies of scale while tapping the feed in tariff. This is what’s happened in France – decent feed in tariff decreasing over time with a 12 MW wind farm size limit. The small size made the sector less attractive for large players until recently when they started clustering projects and lobbying to lift the limit. The current dearth of turbines will make it difficult to get machines for a 10 MW project and the administrative costs of doing multiple 10 MW projects may make the model less attractive. All in good time I suppose.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-352 Anonymous Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:07:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-352 "I congratulate our government," This is a step in the right direction. Now if only the different levels of our goverments can get on the same page and work for the common good of the enviorment and the tax payer. Waste to energy. Cogeneration.(BIOSOLIDS TAKE A SECOND LOOK!) Why not harness the heat energy from the burning of municipal sewage sludge a method of disposal already in practice and produce steam for heating/process and electrical power generation. Seems to me like a no brainer. “I congratulate our government,” This is a step in the right direction. Now if only the different levels of our goverments can get on the same page and work for the common good of the enviorment and the tax payer. Waste to energy. Cogeneration.(BIOSOLIDS TAKE A SECOND LOOK!) Why not harness the heat energy from the burning of municipal sewage sludge a method of disposal already in practice and produce steam for heating/process and electrical power generation. Seems to me like a no brainer.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-351 Anonymous Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:11:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-351 <em>Yes congratulations on the bold, albeit late first move of the Ontario government</em>. I have just recently returned from a review of the German Solar industry and I can say that is successful. <strong>But our government in Ontario has missed two critical pieces that made the German feed in tariff program work.</strong> In Germany they had a "take or pay" legislation and they started their program at 0.52euros or about 0.86c CDN for their SolarPV (the German price drops a few cents every year to provide incentive for installing SolarPV now instead of later) . Maybe this is the reason that Germany has the largest tracked solar array in the world which is currently 10Mw rising to 12.6Mw in the near future. (<em>BTW I don't count the 16Mw array in Nevada because was funded by the military</em>). So if Ontario were serious about solar they would create legislation for a true (simple) feed in tariff (you can check with your lawyers on that one) and set a price that not only will allow for direct investment in large SolarPV arrays but also will stimulate investment for manufacturing in Ontario. There are a lot of jobs to be had in this industry if our government would simply provide the incentives. <strong>And one critical point that many people seem to forget is that the solarPV will be around for many years after the 20 year contracts expire. Lets build a future for Ontario!</strong> Yes congratulations on the bold, albeit late first move of the Ontario government. I have just recently returned from a review of the German Solar industry and I can say that is successful. But our government in Ontario has missed two critical pieces that made the German feed in tariff program work. In Germany they had a “take or pay” legislation and they started their program at 0.52euros or about 0.86c CDN for their SolarPV (the German price drops a few cents every year to provide incentive for installing SolarPV now instead of later) . Maybe this is the reason that Germany has the largest tracked solar array in the world which is currently 10Mw rising to 12.6Mw in the near future. (BTW I don’t count the 16Mw array in Nevada because was funded by the military). So if Ontario were serious about solar they would create legislation for a true (simple) feed in tariff (you can check with your lawyers on that one) and set a price that not only will allow for direct investment in large SolarPV arrays but also will stimulate investment for manufacturing in Ontario. There are a lot of jobs to be had in this industry if our government would simply provide the incentives. And one critical point that many people seem to forget is that the solarPV will be around for many years after the 20 year contracts expire. Lets build a future for Ontario!

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/comment-page-1/#comment-347 Anonymous Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:39:00 +0000 http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2006/03/21/ontario-puts-flesh-on-standard-offer-program/#comment-347 Huzzah indeed. I did a few quick calculations, however, and you're right to say this may not appeal to residential homeowners without some sort of tax break. From what I've seen, typical 1.5 - 5 kWh solar PV systems run from $20k - $40. Locked in at $0.42 /kWh for 20 years means the return on investment is still 20-25 years. Of course, the value of not buying electricity from the province is much greater, so the payback time can still be reduced if energy prices increase (safe bet?). If manufacturing process and material costs come down with increased capacity in the next few years, we may end up with more affordable, more efficient systems with a better return on investment. I'll be watching the prices in the meantime! Huzzah indeed. I did a few quick calculations, however, and you’re right to say this may not appeal to residential homeowners without some sort of tax break. From what I’ve seen, typical 1.5 – 5 kWh solar PV systems run from $20k – $40. Locked in at $0.42 /kWh for 20 years means the return on investment is still 20-25 years. Of course, the value of not buying electricity from the province is much greater, so the payback time can still be reduced if energy prices increase (safe bet?). If manufacturing process and material costs come down with increased capacity in the next few years, we may end up with more affordable, more efficient systems with a better return on investment. I’ll be watching the prices in the meantime!

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